Is this country really a democracy?

This morning I heard a talk show on regular radio that was discussing our current democracy...under the Bush administration. They were discussing how this administration mirrors the concept of collectivism. I had not read much on collectivism before but what they were describing made me come right home and check out the collectivism concept!

I found this definition:

Collectivism, in general, is a term used to describe a theoretical or practical emphasis on the group, as opposed to (and seen by many of its opponents to be at the expense of) the individual. It is thus directly opposed to individualism.

This really sums up how I personally feel about the actions of this administration. As I have said so many times before Karl Rove is a master-mind. This administration has convinced many Americans if you oppose their policies, you are against democracy and are unpatriotic! It equates an alliance with Bush as the best and only way! Anyone who opposes ANY of his policies is determined to be flat out wrong. Under this administration there is no room for any discussion or debate, as typified by Bush's staged press conferences and his prior staged campaign stops.

The most amazing thing I see is that many people will support all of this administrations's policies while forsaking many of their own inclinations. Their reasoning...we must support our president..we are at war...he has values.... These same people throw out skeletons from everyone else’s closet but Bush's!

Now the mantra is Hillary and other politicians are moving toward the middle or "taking sides"with the right. This is an assumption that they are some how "changing" their beliefs to conform with the "right" side. Obviously, many people that think this have never followed these politician's careers. This mantra is chanted by the same people who applauded Arnold and Rudy at the Republican convention....hypocrisy at its best.

Is it such a novel concept to the Bushites for people to have different opinions on issues OR worse opposing views?

[KenOVM]

I can't count the many times I've made a so called bad remark about Mr Bush and been jumped on by flag wavers "YOU can't talk about our President like that!!!" sheeesh no matter what he does it seem as you said Nancy he can do no wrong cuz he's the MAN!
AND thats all he is a MAN not immortal he was picked because he represents the party he can speak well, he carries himself well and has the LOOK. He's a puppet of the good ole boys in the backroom , party advisors tells him what to say and do for the most part and this just isn't the U.S. goes for almost any party leader...Image, period.

[D_Green]

We are supposed to be a democratic republic, however, the making of lifetime politicians by the media, & the apathy of the American voter, have left us with little but a democracy.

I really wish we could return to the original constitutional mandate, that our Senators be appointed by the states legislature & governor. I believe it would result in that group working more toward the states desires, instead of forming coalitions to further individual power, prestige with the press & voters of other states, & ppersonal monetary gain.

JMO

Dennis

[merkurfan]

:youaremymaster: D. Green :youaremymaster:

[Uncle Fester]

Something I can't help but find a little ironic, it seems to me that most of the threads posted here are overtly anti-bush and most of them have been started by McBride.

I would call this not only irrational, but nearly pathalogical.

However, I will take this argument apart point by point:

McBride says:
This administration has convinced many Americans if you oppose their policies, you are against democracy and are unpatriotic! It equates an alliance with Bush as the best and only way! Anyone who opposes ANY of his policies is determined to be flat out wrong. Under this administration there is no room for any discussion or debate, as typified by Bush's staged press conferences and his prior staged campaign stops.

Really, as opposed to the Clinton administration's tactics of smearing those who opposed them?
Oppose government healthcare and they accused you of hating the poor. Oppose gay rights and you were called a homophobe. Oppose affirmitave action and you were called a bigot.
Accuse the President of sexual harrasment, you were called trailer-trash.
Call Clinton a liar, something he ADMITTED to doing, and the dems would say something akin to "it's okay to lie, if it's in YOUR OWN interest."
In fact, any time you oppose the dems, they seek to destroy you personally, professionally and publicly.
Yea, the left has a lock on tolerance, in a parallel universe but certainly not this one.

The most amazing thing I see is that many people will support all of this administrations's policies while forsaking many of their own inclinations. Their reasoning...we must support our president..we are at war...he has values.... These same people throw out skeletons from everyone else’s closet but Bush's!
Something that the dems in this country are not use to is something called leadership and that's why some are willing to put their differences aside for what's best for all of us-a concept compleatly alien to the "me first" of the left.
What is more, if there were anywhere NEAR the skeltons in Bush's closet that Clinton had, don't you think that the mainstream media would be reporting it? For all the accusations that have been made against Bush, there has been virtually no evidence of any of the wrongdoing that Bush is accused of.
Just like there was no documented instances of all the "racial discrimination" that allegedly occured in Florida during the 2000 election.

Now the mantra is Hillary and other politicians are moving toward the middle or "taking sides"with the right. This is an assumption that they are some how "changing" their beliefs to conform with the "right" side. Obviously, many people that think this have never followed these politician's careers. This mantra is chanted by the same people who applauded Arnold and Rudy at the Republican convention....hypocrisy at its best.
Hillary knows that if she would even have a prayer of winning a national election, she had better move to the center or she'll be crushed at the polls and that's just a fact of life.
The same people who had "post election depression" after Kerry lost simply can't understand why their views aren't accepted as gospel by the rest of the country.
In fact, most political operatives would agree that the country is center-right, no center-left or far left as the loudests bush-haters seem to be.

As a dues-paying member of the vast right-wing conspiricy, I can respect differing viewpoints and will listen to what my political opponents have to say, if they would ever stop screaming hatred and spewing vitriloic attacks at me for daring to differ with them.

As I see thing, the left is getting a taste of the medicine it's been dishing out for the past 20 years and are learing that it's a bitter pill to swallow.
Their incessant tantrums are just a symptom of a party that keeps losing elections and rather than figure out what they're missing, simply blame everyone else for not giving them the power they're after.

[merkurfan]

Something I can't help but find a little ironic, it seems to me that most of the threads posted here are overtly anti-bush and most of them have been started by McBride.

I would call this not only irrational, but nearly pathalogical.


McBride is our resident lefty. She also posts most of the topics to keep things moving here. Nothing more.

I to wish we would go back to appointed senators. I don't know why they changed it but it does not make sense to me.

Another thing that would help TERM LIMITS. If you know you can't make a living of it perhaps people will be more willing to do what they should, and the people looking to make a profession of it would not run.

You will never get qualified people to run the way the media and left go after canidiates. They will dig up EVERYTHING and if someone makes a accusation, even if unproven, it is the seriousness of the charge not the strangth of the case. Who would want to subject themselfs to that?

Make the left stand up and filabuster the judges, what is the deal with the lazy mans filabuster?

[KenOVM]

They are appointed here in Canada and are as useless as T#### on a bull as the ruling party does the appointing strictly patronage appointments AND no Terms either they are lifers! There has been some minor attempts to change to vote them in BUT the ruling party quickly buries the issue!
Appointments don't work as the party leaving puts thier people in Senate so the new incoming party can't pass anything! Stalemate

Call Clinton a liar, something he ADMITTED to doing, and the dems would say something akin to "it's okay to lie, if it's in YOUR OWN interest."

It always seems to come back to Clinton...I have no idea what the hang up with him is all about? lol

BUT---lying about a oral sex... screwed up his marriage...OR---lying about why we invaded a country...over 1600 dead Americans....hmmm...nope I feel the same, I'll take the lie about oral sex any day.

[Loose_Cannon47]

I'm with you, McBride...appointed politicians?...that would be like appointed judges, wouldn't it?...the "in power" party would stack the deck in their favor, like they do with all other patronage positions...I think what really needs to be done, is to eliminate political contributions...set aside a set dollar amount for each politician, to be used for their election/re-election...money to be controled by a diverse group of non-partisan non-politicians...like my old man used to say, 'this country has the best politicians money can buy'... :wtf:

Loose

[merkurfan]

I'm sorry.. what did Bush lie about again?? WMD's in Iraq? If so, so did Clinton, Kerry, Gore, Kennedy, blair and others. Lots of people thought Sadam had them. Lots of us still do. Sadam knew we where coming and had 6 plus months to move them. They are probably all in Syria or Iran.

[Uncle Fester]

Something that was glossed over in a few news networks but it's the truth in Iraq, but in order to understand the importance, you'll have to let me refresh your memory about a few things.

A TWA flight was hijacked into Beruit airport and terrorists murdered and then dumped the body of Navy Diver Robert Steadham onto the tarmac.

Terrorists also hijacked the Achilio Lauro cruise ship and murdered a 70 year old jewish man from New York named Leon Klinghoffer, dumping his body into the sea.

Both of these terrorist attacks were masterminded by Abu Abas.

Abu Abas dead body was found in Bhagdad, Iraq after allied forces took control of the city which means that Iraq was giving aid, comfort and support to terrorists that had murdered Americans.

That is an OVERT ACT OF WAR and was in and of itself enough reason to invade Iraq.

It is also a documented fact that Iraq Intel officers had met with Muhammad Atta and some of the other 9/11 hijackers in Germany, Turkey and Spain.

That is an OVERT ACT OF WAR and was in and of itself enough reason to invade Iraq.

Saddam Hussian was PAYING the families of suicide bombers in Isreal $25,000 when their sons (or daughters) would blow themselves up, killing innocent Isrealies.

Does anyone remember the gassing of the Kurds? Hussain had these weapons at one time and if he didn't still have them, why wouldn't he stop trying to block the inspection teams?
In order to give them time to get the weapons to Syria.

It just strikes me that DESPITE the mass graves that were found, despite all the horriffic things that we and the rest of the world KNOW that the Iraq government did how anyone can oppose the removal of this despot.
Given the chance, Hussain would have BEEN the Hitler of our time.
Now we've got Mussuai running around claiming allegance to Bin Laden, hoping to set up another theocracy in Iraq like the one they had in Afghanastan.
NEvermind the fact that the Taliban murdered people by the hundreds, beat women on the street and treated them like they occupied a socail station somewhere below dogs and cattle.

Yes, over 1600 American Troops have died in operations to date and I'm sure that many more will lose their lives.
But I can't help but wonder what would have happened if when faced with losses, America had given up on the Normandy invasion when more than twice the number of troops we've lost in Iraq were killed in the first half hour of that invasion?

There's something that most of the "left" doesn't understand and I had hoped that if nothing else, the beheading video's would have illistruated this:
These islamo-facists cannot be bargained with, they cannot be reasoned with and in their twisted view of the world, if you dare disagree with them, that gives them license to kill YOU.
If you are a Christian, Jew or any other group that they lable an "infidel", it's license to KILL YOU.

The "Peace at any price" crowd are quite comfortable chanting that mantra as long as the troubles are "over there" and I don't know about you, but when I saw the trade centers collapse, I would have thought that people would understand that the world isn't about our shopping malls, Starbucks and cable TV.

There are DANGEROUS people who live for the day when they get the chance to kill you just because you don't believe as they do-nothing else.

I say, let's send THEM to meet Allah FIRST because it's the ONLY way to stop them.

[woobergoober]

Yes, and to ad to Uncle Festers comments, another thing that linked Hussein to the terrorists, was Salmon Pac- a small island on the Euphrates River that contained a fuselage of a 747 that was being used to train terrorists on how to attack and hold an airliner. Rest assured Saddam new about this!

Scott

[kswish]

I have been reading this forum lately and have found that the majority of the posts in here are ANTI BUSH, which I find quite full of B.S.

This President inherited the crap that Clinton left, and then came 911. I feel that President Bush is doing what needs to be done and should have been done ALONG time ago. This man has taken the "bull by the horns" and is looking out for our security at home and trying to make a difference in the world.

Yes, I voted for bush and would vote for him again if he could run. I often thank God that Gore wasn't elected during Bush's first run for the office. After 911 I wonder what tree Gore would have been hiding behind.
And then came Kerry, what a joke. A so called Viet Nam Veteran. What did he serve in Viet Nam, 4 months? WOW, what a hero.

I am proud to say that Bush is MY president and will defend him and his actions. He is definately a refreshing change over the "waste of human flesh" that preceeded him.

[merkurfan]

one of the mods in this forum was a lib, she was the one that came up with the bulk of the topics. Since she has left I am sure things will swing to the right a bit ;)

[woobergoober]

I can tell you what we would be doing right now if Gore was President............we would be calling for more inspectors to go inspect for WMD's, even though (a small point that most miss) the inspectors were there for one purpose and one purpose only- to VERIFY that the WMD's Hussein had, were indeed destroyed, and to see the proof of this.

Contrary to popular belief, they were not over there to find WMD's. You could hid a WMD in your shirt pocket, so how the hell could anybody go find something like that by just looking around?

We would still have the inspectors, and there would still be killings and torture, on a daily basis, of Iraqi citizens.

Thank you Heavenly Father for not letting Gore be President!

Scott

[Munchkin]

Thank you Heavenly Father for not letting Gore be President!
AMEN ! :)

[merkurfan]

ditto for dean and kerry...

[D_Green]

Oh, man...does no one else see the futility of our actions in Iraq? People must want to be free, so badly that they are willing to fight for it. The Iraqui people don't want it that badly.

During all of Sadam's cruel actions, there was never a law banning firearms or explosives in that country. It's been proven that firearms were readily available. But, did the people rise up to a half-assed army?? NOPE How do you give something to folks that don't want it? That didn't earn it?

I think it will be another Vietnam. When our politicians get enough of the vocal soundbites on the tube, when they get tired of spending tax dollars with no return, they will pull out the troops, regardless of the fallout to the Iraquis that were loyal to us. Seen it happen once, I can recognize it happening again....

UF..I agree that those incidents you posted of, before 9/11, were acts of war, but the ruling powers at the time decided to take no action

I agreed with the reasons GWB sent troops to Iraq, but as time progressed & the reasons were not proven, and the fact that GWB took no disciplinary action against the providers of false information, I now doubt those reasons, and question if he did play rather loosely with intelligence information.

I voted for the man once, but not the second time. No, I didn't vote Dem, either. I cannot blindly follow any man or party. Life's lessons in a damp, hot jungle country taught me that I must question all politicians.

To clarify about my wish for elected senators, if the elected governor of a state were changed, D to R, or vice-versa, the new governor had the power to change those selected to represent his state. It would make for a stronger stand for states rights at the federal level. Course, I could spit in one hand, and wish in the other...

[merkurfan]

Iraq's don't wana be free????? :yikes: Where do you get your news? The commie news network? (cnn) They have a new military and new police force. For the most part the Iraq's themselfs are EXTREAMLY happy to be out from under Sadam. Everytime they raised up, Sadam would crush them. Look what happened when Bush Sr pulled out. If they raised up, sadam would gas them with WMDs that according to some, never exisited.

We helped them yes. But to say that Iraqies did not join in and are not helping in huge way now is a huge insult to the Iraqies.

I am sure you could buy a firearm in Iraq while Sadam was in power. And I am sure you where paid a visit by one of Sadams thugs not long after..

Our news media is doing a good job of making sure the truth never gets here. Talk to a solder that has been over there, you'll get a completly different story.

[D_Green]

Where do I get my news? It wasn't news, it was observation. There were never any reports of Iraqi rebellion before we entered. Yes, I believe we are the reason (protection) that the many Iraq troops/police have joined up. But, it doesn't mean thay had the real desire for freedom, we have a large checkbook.

I don't doubt that some want freedom. I don't believe there were enough to battle for it. True freedom fighters don't have to purchase a weapon. They "liberate" one. :HMM:

Talk to a soldier that's been there? I have, many times. I know several. They are doing the best they can, & yes, most Iraqi people are happy to see them. Most Iraqi people were/are too timid for their own self defense.

I do not dispute that Sadam was a tyrant, only question if the Iraqi are ready/have the desire, for freedom. We spent near 15 yrs in 'Nam, yet when we left, there weren't enough local people to man an army, & most of these deserted. The country reverted to communism in a few months.

Our news media don't report the "good" stories, they don't make the splash that sells news. News is a business. I know for fact, our GI's are doing their best to help the people, but blood, not acts of kindness, sells.

Don't get me wrong, I think our troops are doing an exemplary job, thus the low KIA's there has been, for a two year campaign. I just believe it will all be in vain...

[KenOVM]

Don't get me wrong, I think our troops are doing an exemplary job, thus the low KIA's there has been, for a two year campaign. I just believe it will all be in vain...

I also believe it will be in vain when all is said and done. These people have never gotten along with each other (all the tribes) when we leave all hell will break loose, civil wars for an eternity (see Isreal) and just another tyrant will take Saddams place.

In American history it was YOU the American people that rose up against the tryant Britain and it was the PEOPLE whose bravery and determination that was Britains downfall for underestimating thier will to be free!

The Iraqi people NEVER once showed this determination, the willingness to sacrifice thier lives for freedom, at first they let U.S, British, Aussie troops die for thier cause ONLY when it appeared Saddam was defeated did they crawl out from under thier wives skirts and take the winning side! They didn't appear to be ready nor have earned thier freedom.